Converstations with the Atheist...
2 Comments:
- At 7:26 AM, Dave Lartigue said...
-
In case anyone is curious, the answers are now up:
http://slithytoves.sytes.net/~dave/wordpress/?p=1340 - At 9:01 AM, caparoon said...
-
No one is curious. Everyone stinks.
(whoops! was that out loud..?)
Thanks, man. I will pop this to the top.
posted by caparoon @ 7:56 AM
12 Comments:
so...what do you think of this little exercise? Pro? Con? Ambivilant?
Sorry.. i'm not following. But here's a shot at answering...
I think it is an awesome exercise. I am disappointed that I'm kind of playing the gateway between theistic/atheistic worlds here, and no one from the theistic side--which is supposed to like,care...--seems to be reaching out.
But, A) that's pretty judgemental of me, and so I'm sorry for my attitude. Really. It's just a gut thing, and I know that.
and B) the result is totally in line with my personal belief/philosophy that the most important thing for personal growth is the personal relationship.
Dave and I are friends. (Dave and no one else here are.. so... what should I expect?)
I have learned a heck of a lot, and grown, from our relationship. But I probably shouldn't expect people, outside of the bounds of that relationship, to get from it anything like what I have.
I guess.. if I have gotten anything from it.. then it's pretty much my responsibility to share what I've gotten within the context of my *own* relationships. "Like one beggar telling another where he found bread."
Did i come close to answering the question..?
(also, I haven't read the answers yet, myself. ; ] )
Yeah, that answers it. Thanks.
Dave seems pretty well thought out and I enjoyed the read.
As far as no one 'reaching out', well, i'm not surprised. the internet is a horrible place for these types of discussions, as you well know. the athiest POV is fairly well established and well reasoned (seems to me). I can't think of a single thought provoking question that hasn't already come to most well thought out people (am I/are we alone? what happens when I die? how should i treat those around me/apply morality?).
In all seriousness, if you can swing it, i'd be more likely to participate in 'ask a muslim, ask a mormon, ask a orthodox xain'. That is, something where there is still a lot of mystery to me because I just don't have a relationship with someone of that disposition I can honestly ask questions to. The goal (for me) would be to learn, not to prostelitize.
i notice you are changing up the front page. nice!
Thanks! (about the page.. gotta love that html.. ) Dave is also the person helping me get my tags straight. I know very little about it...
I get your point, and that is some of what I've heard from others, as well. My thought/point here was that rather than defining an entire position, we should be defining each individual's position as we encounter them. Because painting all atheists (muslims, mormons, etc...) with the same broad brush is a dangerous, foolhardy, and unproductive endeavor. And my hope was that this "exercise" would help break people out of the mindset that if we've met one {{whatever}}..we've met them all.
But your point is still very valid-- especially considering that you don't even know Dave. Also, most of the (theist) people who read this blog are really awesome, mature folks, who wouldn't really paint Dave or any other atheist, muslim, etc.. with a broad brush.. or anything else. ..unless he asked 'em *real* nice-like. But I digress.
And yeah, actually, I can probably swing the Muslim request. Could probably also the Mormon request, though the Mormon I know is not someone I have a close friendship with.
As a precursor to "ask the Muslim" I would say that it seems the Muslims are all over the map--possibly even moreso than the Christians. Which is kinda funny when you think about it, considering that the penalty for getting the Kuran wrong is *death*.. : ] But there sure are a lot of spins on interpretation. Which kinda goes back to my original point/intent.. that we should approach each individual as such.
But it seems like everybody already knows that. So I guess we'll have to distribute the blog to the unwashed masses, instead of just to this particularly enlightened group of people.
(slashdot this, and I will come to your house and poke your eye)
If it helps, I don't believe in Allah either.
bwahaha. that's awesome.
hi dave. i'm eric. i grew up w/john. been a flip flopper in my belief set and have agreed with much of what you wrote. thanks for the article.
Eric, I'm not sure I would so casually call what we did together "growing up".. : ]
Dave, I finally actually read your responses, and for the sake of the public dialogue, i'm going to try and respond to it here instead of via IM.
My reflection on reading what you've written is that some of it is hard for me--not that you don't already know that.
First because, naturally, I feel like what I believe is "something more," and it's only natural that I want my friends to be in the same boat. But I think somewhat the same could be said for you, and your wants for me. Fair enough. Sad, I think, but not exclusively from my position. Sad, rather, for both of us that we aren't entirely of one mind (then again, we've both seen each other's minds, and I think we'd agree that those are scarier cupboards than either of us would care to cohabitate.)
Secondly, because I can't see some of the things that you say, any more than you seem unable to see some of the things that I have said. Can't grasp them. I don't think it's because I'm not smart enough, or that I'm brainwashed, any more than I think you don't see from my perspective because of a lack of intellect or some kind of secular indoctrination. But man.. sometimes you (I) hit a worldview wall and just go.. "Ahh.. I don't know how to address that. I can't relate."
The way I see it, we both have things we believe in. I don't see your atheism so much as a lack of a belief in God, rather more of an active belief in a God-free system. My belief, conversely, is in a God-filled system. (I hope you don't hate that as much as I think you will)
You said "Belief — true belief — is beyond reason." I'm inclined to think that's true. I'm not sure how consistent it is with all of the other things you said.. I think it probably is, just knowing you, and not having the leisure at the moment to disect what you said. Experience tells me that it comes down to this: Some believe in a God-filled world, Some believe in a God-free world. And no amount of "reasoning" one way or the other will ultimately make a lick of difference. I don't know why, for sure.
Now... for all my free-will theologian friends out there who just wet themselves... I'm not saying that we are without choice in whether or not we follow God. That's a WHOLE other blog, for a whole other day. (probably not even then, because arguments on the internet.. esch..)
I am trying to keep the same mind as you in the "I can’t imagine what could happen..." category. Of course, it's through my possibly-skewed perspective, so it comes out like, "I can't imagine what could happen [that would make me stop believing what I do]." But I suppose there might be something, for both of us. In fact, based on my belief, I really think there is something/one that could, for you! Whereas you'll just have to hold out that I come to my senses, I guess.
: ]] (not likely, though. all the evidence is against it.)
But even though it is hard for those reasons, I'm awful glad to be able to read it, at all, and for you to be willing to read what I've got to say, as well.
And no, I'm not trying to "convert" you, I just happen to like you, so you're stuck with me sharing my crap, just like I'm stuck with yours. (though I actually rather enjoy it)
That's why we love you, Doug.
That, and your "Swirling Vortex of Crap" theory of your own life experience, which has never ceased to serve me well as an analytical tool in my own journey.
"I don't see your atheism so much as a lack of a belief in God, rather more of an active belief in a God-free system."
I have to disagree with this point, if only for semantic reasons. To me, redefining the stance changes it in an important way. "Belief in a God-free system" implies that I require or have an active desire in keeping God out of the system. That is, it makes it sound like my point of view is my goal, and I do what it takes to maintain it.
I can kind of see where someone who believes would think "Surely, if he can't see all this evidence right in front of him, he must be actively avoiding it" but the truth is, I'm not trying to keep God out of my system, I don't really see any need for him being in there in the first place. It would be like describing a car as "aquarium-free". Most people would say that a car IS aquarium free, and if you want to put an aquarium in it, then you need to do the work.
I was *afraid* you'd hate that...
And yes, I think it's mostly semantics. I didn't mean to imply that you were actively keeping an "obvious God" out of your system. My focus, actually, was more on the "system" part.
Ironically, I think that my intent/point was more in favor of the exact thing that you are asserting. I was trying to say that I think we both actively believe in a system, but that the systems are just different.
Saying that I believe in God and you don't believe in God puts you in the position of continually denying the existence of a God--which I don't think is how you see it. You don't spend all your time going around "not-believing". You just go around. Period.
I believe in a system (world, universe,whatever) that includes a God. You believe in a system that does not include a God. My emphasis here was on what we believe, not what we don't believe.
(if "God-free" implies the active avoidance of a God figure, then "God -filled" implies the active insertion of a God figure... which is not how I see myself, either. It's just what I believe. Not what I attempt to believe.)
That better?
Gotcha. I was afraid I wasn't interpreting that correctly and I see that I wasn't.
Post a Comment
<< Home